• 8 March 2012
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Bangalore India BIO 2012 CEO Conclave: Firsthand Account



L-R: Dr Suri Venkatachalam, Dr Rashmi H Barbhaiya, Mr K V Subramaniam, Mr Narayanan Suresh, Dr Vijay Chandru, Mr Sridhar Mosur, Mr D A Prasanna, Mr Jignesh Bhate
The CEO Conclave at Bangalore India BIO 2012 was co-chaired by Dr Vijay Chandru, president, ABLE, chairman & CEO, Strand Life Sciences and Mr Narayanan Suresh, group editor, BioSpectrum & Technology Review India.

Participants: Mr Sridhar Mosur – CEO & president, global discovery and development, Jubilant Life Sciences, Dr Rashmi H Barbhaiya – CEO & managing director, Advinus Therapeutics, Mr D A Prasanna – chairman & managing director, Ecron Acunova, Dr Suri Venkatachalam – CEO & managing director, Connexios Life Sciences, Mr K V Subramaniam – president & CEO, Reliance Life Sciences, Mr Jignesh Bhate–founder & CEO, Molecular Connections

Dr Vijay Chandru, president, ABLE; and chairman & CEO, Strand Life Sciences: Today life sciences and biotechnology have started coming to such fruition in Karnataka owes a lot to a long history of focus on technology. At one of the BIO meetings in US, we came back and actually setup ABLE and BioSpectrum also started just around then. ABLE and BioSpectrum have worked in partnership and BioSpectrum is sort of voice of ABLE. BioSpectrum works for the sector and ABLE sort of being the industry body, have brought the activities together. I think it's been a great partnership and has brought us to a point where I believe we are now at that $4-5 billion industry size. I think most of us, who have built companies, know that there are certain sizes where you kind of plateau a little bit and it takes a little bit of effort to push through and go to the next level and I think biotech is probably at one of those situations right now. And I think it will really be interesting to actually listen to our fellow CEOs here and their ideas on what keeps them up at night and how we sort of breakthrough to the next level. So I think let Suresh actually be the master of ceremonies here and takeover on telling you how this will be conducted and take it from there.

Mr N Suresh, group editor, BioSpectrum and Technology Review India: Thanks Vijay. Just taking off from what Vijay said in 2003 ABLE was just a year old organization, founded in Delhi and moving to Bangalore. CyberMedia also came to Bangalore and started BioSpectrum. So at that time a lot of colleagues in the media industry asked us what are we going to report? Is there enough happening for us to report? Then we said yes we will find the happenings in the industry because after all the company CyberMedia, of which BioSpectrum is a part, started in 1982 with Data Quest magazine and the software or the IT industry at that time was $100 million only. And still colleagues from the media industry were sceptical, they said after five-to-six months what will you write, there isn't enough. But here we are today. BioSpectrum will complete nine years in March and start its 10th year, BIO as it was called then, has also expanded to Bangalore India BIO. When we (BioSpectrum and ABLE) started the first survey, the industry size was only $400 million and there were just 115 companies. Last year, the industry had over 320 companies and revenues in excess of $4 billion.

And as soon as the fiscal year closes on March 31st we are going to start the 10th edition of the survey. So just before the survey starts, we have done a secret survey, the results of which I am going to reveal now. One thing we have found is that majority of the the CEOs of the industry, in spite of all the good things we hear about them are still spending many sleepless nights. So today we are going to ask each of the CEOs to speak about two things which makes them spend sleepless nights because of the situation the industry is in.

Dr Suri Venkatachalam, CEO & MD, Connexios Life Sciences: Thanks Chandru. Thanks Suresh. I will split my four minutes into two parts. One, say little bit about Connexios and a little about what keeps us awake at night. You should be awake at night if you are a CEO, I guess.

Connexios is a drug discovery company based out of Bangalore. We focus on trying to develop a portfolio, a pipeline of novel small molecule based therapeutics with a focus on diseases of metabolism with a particular focus on type 2 diabetes. So what we did in Connexios was build a sort of what we think is a fairly unique approach over several years. What we call a translational network biology approach. Two components to it, one is the computational part, where we build these complex, fairly comprehensive models of cell biology of the key cells involved in it in the effort to understand the underlying pathology of disease. And then in vitro and in vivo extensive experimentation, which tends to sort of use the hypothesis generated through computational approaches. And the idea is to try and understand the disease mechanisms, come up with new therapeutic modalities, novel targets and also biomarkers in an effort to link molecular events underlined disease to sort markers in the serum and the clinic so through translational kind of approach. What have we done with this approach? While the company is being around for a while we spent first few years really incubating this whole idea and true drug discovery efforts started, I would say sort of, in late 2007.

Since then we have sort of built fairly extensive and diverse pipeline of early stage programmes, most matured programme. In type 2 diabetes we are hoping to complete the final preclinical development stages and we are hoping to put it first in human this year. And then we have three other programmes of novel targets which are coming very closely behind that. Also in late stage preclinical development. And very recently we started the initial drug discovery efforts in completely novel targets. I think these are completely targets which nobody has worked on till now, so this truly is a novel target. In addition to that we have a large portfolio of validated targets not just in type 2 diabetes but are looking at whole bunch of other metabolic disorders, non-alcoholic steatohepatitis, some disorders in the liver which is hepatic cell carcinoma. We are also looking at obesity, we are looking at diabetic complications, specially nephropathy. So we have a whole bunch of a large portfolio of targets validated through this whole in vitro to in vivo extensive approach and it is a large portfolio. In addition we have also been able to bring a lot of interesting biomarkers, which are linked to tissue specific pathology. So we sort of mechanistically linked serum based biomarkers to tissue specific pathology. I mean, beyond the jargon basically what we are trying to do here is really try to find useful companion diagnostics which can play a significant role in clinical developments of some of these novel targets, compounds against these novel targets. So that's a little bit about Connexios.

What keeps us awake during night at this point in time? I think we are in a kind of little bit of a unique position in Connexios. We have been focussed on proprietary drug discovery and developing a pipeline, more like a conventional biotechs in the US and Europe so we have burnt a lot of money so far. I think the real challenge now is how do we use this portfolio and this is what I think are one of the bigger challenges. How do we structure partnerships on one level and balance risk with reward. It is a small biotech company with the kind of cost base that we have in India and the cost that we have incurred so far really take on late stage or early stage clinical development are also huge challenges. So how do you structure partnerships where the risk and the reward are sort of balanced while ensuring that in the short term we have some insights whether they really want to invest in late stage assets or in an early stage assets.

So especially in therapeutic areas like diabetes and metabolic disorders, where investments can be huge, these are large sort of decisions for most pharma, but I think we are going through those sort of existential struggles and that's one thing which definitely keeps me awake at night.

The other part is when you have this ability to generate multiple options how do you construct a portfolio which addresses all these requirements. I mean where do you place your limited resources. You are trying to juggle multiple balls in the air. So how do you allocate resources, how do you do the tradeoff between novelty and clinical relevance, more than clinical relevance something which is purchasable, something that is partnerable and you are doing second guessing. I mean you are always sort of guessing the trends especially when you are dealing with novel targets. I think another significant challenge which has been there along the journey tends to get more acute as we are getting into a point where these assets are getting closer and closer to the clinic.

Mr Suresh: So structured partnership and resource allocation keep you awake?

Dr Venkatachalam: I guess the challenge today is that there are no straightforward partnership models where you just go to pharma who needs these assets. You setup your partnership, pharma takes the risk, you are a junior partner and things move on. But I think there are far more deeper challenges, so you need to explore different partnership models.

Dr Chandru: We are actually going to flip over to the other extreme. So Jignesh Bhate of Molecular Connections.

Mr Jignesh Bhate, founder & CEO, Molecular Connections: Thank you very much Vijay, thanks Suri and thanks Suresh. I run a Bioinformatics company, we are about 10 years old, the largest company in the toxicity mining space from India with about 800 people. Talking about challenges you are going to hear a lot of what keeps us awake. One thing which I find keeping me awake, although there are not many which keep me awake, is some techno commercial skills with our team and we have good scientists. We have great scientific managers but the middle layer I want to find good scientists also to do sales or also to do biotech is something which I find missing. And I hope the academia here tries to kind of bridge that gap because we don't find that. We invest a lot in training and the scientists are either good scientist but not necessarily sales people and the sales people are great sales people but are not necessarily domain guys. And that's a challenge which now at this scale, when we are 800 people and want to grow to 2,000 over the next three years, is something which keeps us awake. Where do we find that talent which can help us take the next leap, that's the number one challenge.

I think the second challenge is the global vitality in informatics is something which I don't think Bangalore is responsible for, but that is something which does keep us awake. I mean there is huge amount of volatility especially in the informatics space. There had been a lot of hype earlier on in 2001-02 that informatics delivered drugs on the platter. It didn't happen and kind of went down 2005-06 we saw some amount of consolidation. I personally feel we are seeing an uptrend, winners are emerging in certain areas so that niche groups are emerging. So toxicity mining is one group, systems biology one group, computational chemistry one group and data analysis one group. So you are seeing winners but the jury is still out. My guess is that there will be some more consolidation and the global volatility, with Europe not helping and US slowing down, is not helping. So I think that's another challenge which we feel is something that we need to encounter as companies which are from Bangalore especially.

Dr Chandru: So you mentioned about HR issues...

Mr Bhate: People issue.

Dr Chandru: There is the people issue and the global volatilities...

Mr Bhate: Especially in informatics.

Mr Suresh: So our next panelist is Rashmi Barbhaiya of Advinus Therapeutics. We know that he is shuttling between New Jersey, where his family is and Bangalore, where he works. Certainly he will be keeping awake quite late in the day. But apart from it what are the two things that keep you awake related to biotech industry?

Dr Rashmi Barbhaiya, CEO & MD, Advinus Therapeutics: Thank you very much. I appreciate the invitation to be here. I have a confession to make. Believe me nothing keeps me awake. Since maybe I passed my teenage years when I used to keep awake for different reasons but since I passed those days nothing keeps me awake. That's one good thing about me. And I have never taken any sleeping pills in my life but I believe I am invited to talk about some issues that industry is facing. Just by way of introduction my name is Rashmi Barbhaiya, I am one of the founders, CEO and MD of Advinus Therapeutics, it's a small boutique, a drug discovery and development company. I am not going to do any advertisement of the company but just briefly tell you about having spent 30 years in the US and coming back and setting up this company here, what are the issues that we find?

And since this panel discussion is talking about issues I do want to put a disclaimer that the fact that I am here, the fact that I have invested my own personal money into the venture that we have created, says that there are a lot of positive things about setting up units in Bangalore and in India. But since the theme is to talk about the issue I am going to talk about the issues and being very vocal about it but I don't want anybody to go and feel that there is a gloom and doom and all we heard from Dr Barbhaiya is negative. So what are the issues that we are facing? First and foremost, I have a copyrighter statement that China is China because of its government and India is India despite its government. The time it takes to conduct a simple experiment or even to take five ml of blood in dogs. It cannot sustain this industry. So government regulations need to change to support the industry and put us at a competitive advantage or at least at a level playing field with any other country with which India is competing.

No where in the developed world does one need to get approval to get a simple blood sample from an animal. In India you do. If you are lucky and discover a molecule and if you want to do first time on human trials those who dared to do, conduct such trials in India can tell the stories. It takes anywhere from nine-to-12 months to get even an approval. So between the first single ascending dose and multiple ascending dose if you lose about 18 months, those 18 months are essentially eroded from your patent life.

So if your molecule is going to make $4 billion in the fourth year you experience a $6 billion erosion of value of your asset. And when that happens, you ask yourself what am I doing here? With all the dreams and aspirations and the advantages that I thought I am going to get in India, have I got it? And nobody cares about this but for 10 years I have been hearing that things will change. Things will change. Nothing has changed so far. So if one has to, if India has any aspiration to become a meaningful player, regulations need to change and I am sure a lot of CEOs are keeping awake because of this.

Secondly, the negative sentiments about India. In the past six months, I have had the opportunities to meet with at least a dozen CEOs of large pharmas, not so large pharmas, and heads of R&D of global companies. And practically from everyone I have heard that we would rather go to China than India. Nobody wants to setup anything in India. Infact those who are here are also pulling out and those who have aspirations to make India a global player have to do some introspection and ask what are we doing that is conveying such wrong negative sentiments. Thirdly is our own attitude.....

Mr Suresh: Rashmi, you said nothing keeps you worried and now....

Dr Barbhaiya: Believe me with all I am saying when I hit the bed I sleep well. I have absolutely no problem.

Dr Chandru: The next speaker is Mr D A Prasanna

Mr D A Prasanna, chairman & MD, Ecron Acunova CRO: Thank you Vijay. I have been very fortunate that in my career in Karnataka, in India and in the world I was fortunate to be part of many transformations. One was that for 20 years I worked in IT and Software industry taking competitiveness of India to the world. For 13 years I worked in the medical diagnostic industry taking Asia's competitiveness to the world. The first company I worked was Wipro, where I was vice chairman. Second company I worked, was GE, where I was again CEO of many parts of that company. So when I was very fortunate to make good money through stock options, I said I have to give back something back to the country from where I won so much of money in terms of luck of being part of transformation. And looked at what transformation I can be part of where I can put this money back into the society. And I looked at that point of time, it looked to me that India's competitiveness lies in taking drugs to market faster.

And as I said, in 2006 I put the savings and got to establish a CRO. And that's how Manipal Acunova was born with Manipal Group as a co-investor and it became Ecron Acunova when we acquired the company in 2007. To keep the story short, having been successful, today if you classify CROs, in the clinical space CROs can be classified as a global multinationals such as Quintiles that operate in India. Then there are a number of CROs serving the generic industry who mainly focus on BA/BE studies and the third category is the clinical CROs who focus on patient studies. And we fall in the third category of clinical CROs who focus on patient studies and in these five years we have grown to around $30 million and gained a size where we are ranked as perhaps number one Indian clinical CRO in the market and to that extent we have been successful. But success is not just revenue or profitability or reputation you earn. Success is whether you have, in this journey, contributed to really achieving the speed to market which we thought was available in the Indian competitiveness.

Now if you ask me, if 2009 was a watershed sort of year. These 2.5 years have been a period where regulators have been quite undecided on giving a predictable regulatory pathway of doing clinical development in India. We were getting permissions in this country in about three months time to start a clinical trial before 2009. And a lot of companies came into this country saying that with all the advantages that we have got this can be a great place to conduct clinical studies. But those three months have become unpredictable. If it becomes six months no problem. If it becomes nine months like China and it is predictable, no problem. But if there is no predictability whether it is going to be six months or nine months or whether it will come or not then you start walking away from whether we should be in this geography or not. And that's where a number of our customers have been in terms of their journey into leveraging India as a competitive space for clinical development.

And so in this period we got close to many companies. Like Rashmi said CEOs and strategists of many of these companies work with us and said that let's build together a strong ecosystem here. But the message we are getting is that, in this ecosystem if uncertainty is there you work with us to give us alternate options. So in the last 2.5 years we have worked with our customers to create risk management strategy to derisk India. So the first step was that we went to Bangladesh, we went to Sri Lanka, we opened those countries for trials because the profile of the population is very similar and the disease burden is very similar.

Then we went to South East Asia, now we have gone to China, we have gone to the Middle East region so the question is that while we are successful in derisking strategies for our customers, we are increasing our own country's risk and our own financial risk because in our own country we are very much welcome to develop a business but when you go to another country obviously you face new environment, new culture and new risks. So what keeps us awake in the night is that a very peculiar position where we have been driven into where we are held guilty of misusing India for clinical development rather than using India for clinical development. So we spent a lot of energy proving that US FDA has given us a clean chit, DCGI has given us a clean chit, inspections by Indian regulators and top regulators of India have all given us a clean chit and broadcasting this message again and again and again.

Now that's a very funny situation that in our own country we have to argue that we are clean and we are not doing anything wrong. Whereas when we opened business in Denmark, because it is a great place for clinical trials, you may not know that Denmark has a population smaller than Bangalore. But Denmark does more clinical trials than entire India put together. The Danish ambassador came to our office and he welcomed the investment and facilitated our investment into that country. So we see policies which are sort of very daunting that being this our nation we want to develop a great ecosystem. But if we put the same energy elsewhere, I think we can develop a global ecosystem which is much better.

And so three things keep me awake, one is India regulator risk, second is country risk of nations we have gone to and the third thing is that in all this we have been very fortunate to have clients who are working very closely in shaping their strategy and our strategy together. But if that client goes into merger and acquisition then his whole strategy changes. And whatever we have invested in terms of country strategy to go into this countries if it gets set back because of a merger and acquisition in our customer. That is the third risk which keeps us awake that we wish that this doesn't happen.

Dr Chandru: Sure. I think it would be nice to listen to, as we had asked you to speak about the concerns that keep you up. But it would also be nice if you could mention if there is a fix. What do you think would fix the problem? Regulatory reforms or...

Mr Prasanna: Of course regulatory changes are required. We are continuously interacting with the regulators to make realignment of the process. But there are some areas which are not regulated in the country like data services, medical services, safety services which support clinical trials. There are areas in which you can still make a huge impact but in the core area of drug development the regulatory situation in our country needs to change to be more predictable. If there is delay no problem but it should be predictable and if it becomes predictable I think we can get back the country's potential leveraging to a great extent.

Mr Suresh: As we said in the beginning of the panel discussion, the industry has made great strides and we are here also to celebrate what we have achieved in the last nine-to-10 years. So our next speaker is Mr K V Subramaniam who is the CEO of Reliance Life Sciences. He is part of India's largest industry group and influential name itself clears a lot of hurdles. Reliance Life Sciences itself has had a great run in the last two-to-three years, So I would ask KVS as we all call him to speak about the company's future plans and his outlook for the industry?

Mr K V Subramaniam, president & CEO, Reliance Life Sciences: Thank you Suresh. I will come to the main part, I should say that I come from a corporate business development background. I was never a student of biology but i have learnt a huge amount of biology in the last years while building Reliance Life Sciences from scratch. And I always tell my colleagues that when you build an organisation you have more frustrations than excitement. So you have to live through the frustrations with a lot of resilience and you have to get motivated by the excitements which are short but inflating.I also tell them that the more you look behind the less you will move forward. I am at the other end of the spectrum compared to Rashmi and a lot of things keep me awake at night. But I do get sleep because there was a very famous Tamil poet who said when you work you should work as if there is no tomorrow and when you sleep you should sleep like a piece of wood, a dead log. So that is something that I try and practice.

But in Reliance Life Sciences we are at a stage where we are trying to move to the next trajectory from several hundred crores to let's say thousand crores and plus. And we are very optimistic about all the opportunities that are there in the space not only in India but in other parts of the world which can make this happen. Whether it's in biosimilars or whether it's in plasma proteins which are the two mainstays of our business. And going forward in the future, also in regenerative medicines. So there is a lot of optimism around that. We see a lot of opportunities in many countries outside India and I am not talking only about developed markets like the US or Europe but in many other countries like Latin America and Russia and also in the recent past in Middle East and Africa. So there are a lot of opportunities out there and for us India is a starting point and that's the strategy that we always believed in that. We want to get to India first. And we have a commitment in India to make sure that all of the drugs that we produce are made at a very competitive cost and help address the accessibility and affordability issues.

But what keeps us awake is all the mundane issues that you can associate with the company in the stage of its evolution where it is trying to go to the next trajectory. Whether it is in keeping the innovation engine going and trying to get products to the market much faster despite all the informatives that you have in the regulatory environment and the uncertainties that you deal with. And despite all the issues around being in an industry with a very long gestation, high level of capital intensity and being very strongly innovation driven. So the first part of what keeps you awake is how do you keep continuously coming up with new products and market opportunities. It includes all the registrations that you have to do in many countries and it's a very very long haul in terms of getting the dossiers done, data generated and having the registrations to go through.

The second aspect which keeps you awake is having many of these products out in the market how do you have the intensity of engagement for each of these products with the customers, particularly the doctors and hospitals. Because every product for us is an opportunity. it's a revenue head. Every product in every country is a revenue head. So how do you resource and how do you have the managing systems to make sure that each of these products gets its due in the market place. So that's the second part of the challenge. The third is that as you scale up from manufacturing and quality management perspective the stakes suddenly becomes very high. So today we run batches of let's say close to 2,000 liters in plasma proteins or 640 liters we run regularly in recombinant proteins, we are soon going to get 2,500 liters. So the downside of a batch failure can be very daunting and it needs a huge amount of both courage to go through a batch failure. It is not easy to go through one and it is much harder to face your boss and say look we had a batch failure and that so many crores of rupees down the drain. So that is something that keeps you awake all night and get your batch and some of these batches take an enormous amount of time to make, several weeks. So all the manufacturing and the quality management aspects associated with that.

And the final thing that keeps you awake is the entire managing and the entire cash-to-cash cycle. So since you are in a long gestation period, delays in any part of the development stretches your resources, particularly the financial resources. And it is not easy to have your parent company rooted in the commodity business to be breathing down your back all the time when you are in a long gestation kind of a business. So very tight working capital management, very tight management of the entire supply chain because any disruptions anywhere can create a lot of heartburns, fray tempers and that is something that these are the kind of things that I talked about frustrations. But having said all this I think we definitely see a lot of opportunities. We are currently in the process of taking particularly the biosimilar products to different geographies. And let me tell you some of these products in each of these countries offer fairly large opportunities in their own right and that dream is what not keeps you awake but makes you go to sleep at night. So that's basically what I wanted to share with you. Thank you.

Dr Chandru: So how many of you want to be CEOs? It's been a brutal world out there for the last couple of years. And a part of what you hear tonight I think is the effect that it has on people. The next speaker Sri comes from a company called Jubilant. So Sri let's pickup spirits here a bit.

Mr Sridhar Mosur, CEO & president, global discovery and development, Jubilant Life Sciences: When you are the last speaker and want to say something it is very less to say. I share most of the feelings and emotions to an extent of all my colleagues here. But let me just give you a brief introduction of Jubilant. We are a fairly global life sciences company and while we have origins in India, we have close to half-a-billion dollars of investment outside India, predominantly in North America. So our locations span Europe, US, Canada and we are fairly integrated across the board from discovery to commercial product development side. Our problems are not only connected to India but our problems are very similar to what the pharmaceutical industry is. But we enjoy the benefits of being a kind of a global perspective to things and we channel our business enough to say when one part of it is done, the other part of it we try to keep it up in the best way possible so that we get a neutral outcome as much as possible.

As regards what make me stay awake all the time is, I am awake all the time simply because I live in Toronto and I work at Bangalore. So if I am talking to my guys in the night from Toronto, I am talking to my kids in the night from India. So that keeps logistical my clock going all the time but that was on the light side. But if you really look at what really bothers us, bothers me particularly in terms of after building an institution which is basically well accepted in the collaborative space. We do a lot of collaborations, we have developed a great deal of credibility and outcomes that have come out in a preclinical and the clinical phase. We run on a hybrid model, 40 percent of our business comes out of services and 60 percent comes out of innovation. Both have two different challenging opportunities.

If I look at the service space, I completely concur with Rashmi's point that the Indian attractiveness is not the same if you were to compare our counterparts in China. When we started off, the aspirations that India had 10 years ago if you talk about Suresh about the BioSpectrum approach and the ABLE approach I think the aspirations were like to become a global economy in a different format. And we say now we have reached $4 billion but if you take China their budget towards innovation is more than $4 billion. So I can't do with 24 hours days, to catchup to that I need 48 hours days. And that's probably the same problem all of us have in many different formats. So one part of the business and what keeps you awake is competition and growing economies that actually are more enthusiastic. So we have to deal with that situation so the dynamics from industries, the strategies don't hold on. Today I don't think I can go to a pharmaceutical partner and be clear that next week what would be the strategy, you don't know. You walk into the locations, you don't know many people what they decide is truly what is going to be implemented for a year or two.

Unfortunately in the research space any experiment, be it in any therapeutic career, takes three years. To Suresh's point, how do you collaborate? How do you stretch? I think all of it points out to only one thing any which way you look at it that just show me the money. In the research business we need funding to run large cycles and large operations. You can break the regulatory bell but you have to have enough to feed the system. If you take the innovation area there is great intent from the Government of India, from Indian entrepreneurs but no Indian entrepreneur has deep pockets to make a drug commercially available. No one in this country can do it. If they can do it they can do it in small pockets. The Government has great intent and billions of dollars that are announced every year but if you take what to spent is a fraction of it in terms of driving innovation. So to create that ecosystem is a challenge. These are problems but there are always solutions. We live in a democracy where 20 Indians are better than one intelligent person but we also have an intelligent person in our system. But we have grown as an economy here, we have done very good things in the IT industry. Today we are gold standard in the IT industry.

And to Vijay's point I think we have come to a point, we have plateaud fast, we need some real inflexion and the inflexion has to come from three different places. First, from the pool of Indian entrepreneurs who can create them, Suresh's point in making deals, there is no standard deal available now. As our company and in our collaborative space we do not have a single template, I have seven deals and seven of them are different because you adapt to that and you have to make that work. Secondly we need the industry, the global industry to come in a different fashion here. You don't invest in India for arbitrage that is cost. You have to invest in India for something that you create value because India can be a major translational hub despite the regulatory issues. There are lots of other opportunities that you can create, the type of diseases that you have to deal with here can provide you huge opportunities. If the investment group participates in the healthcare industry you automatically drive the Life Sciences industry into a different format, there is so much of opportunity there. Last but not the least the government and to Rashmi's point despite the government and I think the government has great intent but we do not have the mechanisms to support that. I think they are looking at the industry to come up. I have sat in many forums to say give us some ideas to implement. But we got our day jobs. It doesn't happen. So there has to be a forum, may be an ABLE or something that is accountable as well and that doesn't happen. We sit in these forums, we talk about the problems, we go back, we go back to different problems. But I think the fundamental aspect is if these three groups come together with a strategy that is not 30 days, 90 days but that is approximately five-to-10 days and also measure it for outcomes. I think the India vision has to be driven by the amount of dollars that is being invested in innovation or amount of dollars that is flowing into the country specifically for these areas. It is not about the number of people. There is enough talent here. We have a lot of talent that is coming back to India but not as much as China would get back in China.

I am not comparing India and China here but there is a learning that we follow through. So I think those are the areas that if there is a mechanism that we could create where these forums actually bring participation from the government, not participation by saying I have the intent, I have created this and not said we created this 10 years ago but what is needed for the new economy and every country is going through that. Every region now finds, I see that we have the Pennsylvania Bio sponsoring this event. I think there is competitiveness in US to say who attracts the maximum investment in each State. We have a similar healthy competition here but I think it is not about the US or India because a drug made in India or the US it doesn't matter if it can cure a patient. And that's the purpose that is lost on us.

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